ChrisPaulson
Member
DoDaDew said:
Thats not completely, I don't like Progress and I've been using it for nearly 10 years.
Why Is Progress Still Here?
- Thread starter BCM
- Start date
Thats not completely, I don't like Progress and I've been using it for nearly 10 years.
You are correct, I am a Progress lover, but i'm not the naive single language programmer you take me for. I have experience in Assembly, C, C++, Pascal, Fortran, VB, Delphi, Java and c#.net. Of all of these languages, Progress is the most stable, the most natural to program in and has by far the fastest development cycle. As for needing different technologies in different tiers, just last week I developed a java class which will allow other developers, via the Progress database, to spawn off Progress background jobs running on a remote Solaris box. Hardly sounds like the unlinkable environment that you describe.
As for ODBC, I have used this in the past, though i've found it problematic with most databases you try and link it too, I actually found the Progress(Merant) implementation one of the least problematic to configure. Today though, I wouldnt touch ODBC with a bargepole, its so slow and there really is no need with alternatives such as SQL, XML and SOAP which you can use connect to Progress. Having said all that, much as I love Progress, I shall be reluctantly moving into c#.net as there is just simply more work and its better paid too
MauditOstie
Member
Heheh haven't laugh like that in a long time... Comparing databases! Ain't that fun?
How come i used to work in a Progress/WebSpeed environment, linked to a SQL db on a web server with IIS5 and the only time our server went down and we had major downtime was because of M$ memory leak, security faillure and Network cutouts due to... security failure? Progress never failed on UNIX and we had lightning fast performances out of a RS600 with a PowerPC 300! Our Web server was an Intel Dual P2 500 with 1gig of RAM (and was rebooted every 2 days cause it was crashing due to SQL memory leaks!).
Imagine the QueenMary2 boat using an SQL DB with memory leaks and security faillure hahaha:
Imagine:
- Captain, we are doing 30 knots, we need to halt the ship, incoming Iceberg!
- We can't? Why? aaaahhhhhh damn blue screen!!!!!!!!!
- Please notify the passenger we are all gonne die cause of Mr. Gate!
ROTFLMAO!!!!
How come i used to work in a Progress/WebSpeed environment, linked to a SQL db on a web server with IIS5 and the only time our server went down and we had major downtime was because of M$ memory leak, security faillure and Network cutouts due to... security failure? Progress never failed on UNIX and we had lightning fast performances out of a RS600 with a PowerPC 300! Our Web server was an Intel Dual P2 500 with 1gig of RAM (and was rebooted every 2 days cause it was crashing due to SQL memory leaks!).
Imagine the QueenMary2 boat using an SQL DB with memory leaks and security faillure hahaha:
Imagine:
- Captain, we are doing 30 knots, we need to halt the ship, incoming Iceberg!
- We can't? Why? aaaahhhhhh damn blue screen!!!!!!!!!
- Please notify the passenger we are all gonne die cause of Mr. Gate!
ROTFLMAO!!!!
gregorytje
New Member
Why an airplaine is not using microstoft?
otherwise there would be more plaines in my garden then in the sky.
Unix and linux are the future, why not learning .net, cause the c commision kicked out microsoft (they never come on meetings and don't follow the standards).
If you get one server on windows in your company you put yourself one hand on your back and from that moment microsoft starts playing with that hand until it hurst (with forcing to buy more of the microsoft ****).
Why to pay for an operating system that you need to reboot one a week (otherwise you get bleu screens), linux cost you less and stays running.
otherwise there would be more plaines in my garden then in the sky.
Unix and linux are the future, why not learning .net, cause the c commision kicked out microsoft (they never come on meetings and don't follow the standards).
If you get one server on windows in your company you put yourself one hand on your back and from that moment microsoft starts playing with that hand until it hurst (with forcing to buy more of the microsoft ****).
Why to pay for an operating system that you need to reboot one a week (otherwise you get bleu screens), linux cost you less and stays running.
My 2 cents
Just thought I'd throw in a few of my own views on the Progress world being in it for over a decade now and working on variety of homegrown packages and commercial ones.
The Good
The 4GL is pure power, but like any tool, it's only as good as the one who is using it.
The documentation is outstanding and the PEG is a fantastic resource.
The DB reminds me of my Mom's old station wagon. Not as pretty to talk about around the water cooler, but if you want something that'll get you from A to B and always seems to start no matter what the weather, it's great. I read that analogy (or something similar to it
years ago about Progress and I still agree with it today.
Progress support is great.
The Bad
Every company I've worked with over the past tens years has been trying to get rid of their Progress apps. It's not a technical thing so much as a resource problem and a preception that Progress is "old technology". Trust me - I've carried the Progress torch for a long while, but the fight is a tough one when you're sitting in a room with 10 Oracle Dudes and trying to tell them that Progress is #1 in the Embedded database market, in something like 90% of Fortune 100 companies, etc etc. They don't give a crap and treat Progress like cancer. Not sure what Progress can do about this as I think the battle may have been lost.
Progress licensing is a joke, even the sales reps have to call for support to figure out if you have the right license mix. Just check out all of the posts on the PEG about licensing and you'll see even the old dogs aren't even sure how the whole thing works. Display devices vs any machines that could potentially connect to a progress database versus unique users - ahhhhhh Drives me nuts.
Debugger isn't included with the 4GL - get out your check book. I hate that nickel and dime crap.
No Type 4 JDBC driver. It's tough to tell the Java/web people in your company that they need to buy a SQL client license (again, get out your check book) when they want to connect to a Progress database. Every freak'in other db that I can think of has them out there for free (Orcacle, Sybase, SQL Server, .......).
The Progress editor is a piece of crap. The only thing I use it for is to check the syntax of the code I write. Where to start with that - no tabbed browsing, no built in beautify, no built in ftp client, no auto completion, no hypersearches, no procedure/function lists, no block identifiers, and on and on. No wonder there's talk about moving to Eclipse in the future. Hope that's not just a pipe dream.
SQL width errors. This is something I think people are confused with on this thread. The deal is that Progress will let you throw pretty much as much data as you want in a particular field (as long as the record stays under 32k - at least that's the way it used to be anyway). In your Progress app you just adjust for this by either using the default display format defined in the database or using your own format phrase. The problem is that SQL clients will get an error thrown at them if the data contained in the field is bigger than the "SQL width" defined for a particular field (this is not the same as the display format). This is a pretty easy thing to change in the Data Dictionary or Data Admin tool, but still a pain in the butt when the data warehousing people call you in the middle of the night because they are getting some error when trying to extract some data from a new table that was created. I agree with some other posters that this should be enforced at the DB level on the Progress side. Ya ya - you can enforce this at the application level, but in my opinion, if you think that, you don't have a clue about design.
Progress user rights and SQL92 user rights are treated like completely different animals. This is an endless pain in the butt when you have to administer security on the Progress side and then on the SQL92 side for the same user. I can't believe more people don't speak up about this.
Odd marketing behavior - I attended a Progress user group meeting a couple of months ago and some Progress sales guy was talking about the benefits of being able to create a .NET front end for your app and use some kind of proxy tools to talk to the AppServer so that you can write your front end in VB.net or C# and then write all of your business logic in Progress. Have they been sniffing glue over in Bedford - who in their right mind would architect a solution like this. It's hard enough working with just one technology nevermind mixing a bunch of them together and thinking this is the way to go. Ok - I'm going to write a .NET front end for my app, write my business logic in Progress and put it in the Appserver, and oh ya - I'll write my stored Procedures in Java and store them with the DB. So all my manager needs to do is find .NET/Progress/Java guys and we're golden. A few other people at the meeting thought that this was the beginning of the end too.
Not sure what the status of BLOBs and CLOBS are in version 10, but this has been something that has bothered me for the longest time. I had to write an app a few years back that used the RAW data type and had to do the chunk / un-chunk deal to store anything over 32k. Brutal.
Flame Suit on.
JR
Just thought I'd throw in a few of my own views on the Progress world being in it for over a decade now and working on variety of homegrown packages and commercial ones.
The Good
The 4GL is pure power, but like any tool, it's only as good as the one who is using it.
The documentation is outstanding and the PEG is a fantastic resource.
The DB reminds me of my Mom's old station wagon. Not as pretty to talk about around the water cooler, but if you want something that'll get you from A to B and always seems to start no matter what the weather, it's great. I read that analogy (or something similar to it
years ago about Progress and I still agree with it today.Progress support is great.
The Bad
Every company I've worked with over the past tens years has been trying to get rid of their Progress apps. It's not a technical thing so much as a resource problem and a preception that Progress is "old technology". Trust me - I've carried the Progress torch for a long while, but the fight is a tough one when you're sitting in a room with 10 Oracle Dudes and trying to tell them that Progress is #1 in the Embedded database market, in something like 90% of Fortune 100 companies, etc etc. They don't give a crap and treat Progress like cancer. Not sure what Progress can do about this as I think the battle may have been lost.
Progress licensing is a joke, even the sales reps have to call for support to figure out if you have the right license mix. Just check out all of the posts on the PEG about licensing and you'll see even the old dogs aren't even sure how the whole thing works. Display devices vs any machines that could potentially connect to a progress database versus unique users - ahhhhhh Drives me nuts.
Debugger isn't included with the 4GL - get out your check book. I hate that nickel and dime crap.
No Type 4 JDBC driver. It's tough to tell the Java/web people in your company that they need to buy a SQL client license (again, get out your check book) when they want to connect to a Progress database. Every freak'in other db that I can think of has them out there for free (Orcacle, Sybase, SQL Server, .......).
The Progress editor is a piece of crap. The only thing I use it for is to check the syntax of the code I write. Where to start with that - no tabbed browsing, no built in beautify, no built in ftp client, no auto completion, no hypersearches, no procedure/function lists, no block identifiers, and on and on. No wonder there's talk about moving to Eclipse in the future. Hope that's not just a pipe dream.
SQL width errors. This is something I think people are confused with on this thread. The deal is that Progress will let you throw pretty much as much data as you want in a particular field (as long as the record stays under 32k - at least that's the way it used to be anyway). In your Progress app you just adjust for this by either using the default display format defined in the database or using your own format phrase. The problem is that SQL clients will get an error thrown at them if the data contained in the field is bigger than the "SQL width" defined for a particular field (this is not the same as the display format). This is a pretty easy thing to change in the Data Dictionary or Data Admin tool, but still a pain in the butt when the data warehousing people call you in the middle of the night because they are getting some error when trying to extract some data from a new table that was created. I agree with some other posters that this should be enforced at the DB level on the Progress side. Ya ya - you can enforce this at the application level, but in my opinion, if you think that, you don't have a clue about design.
Progress user rights and SQL92 user rights are treated like completely different animals. This is an endless pain in the butt when you have to administer security on the Progress side and then on the SQL92 side for the same user. I can't believe more people don't speak up about this.
Odd marketing behavior - I attended a Progress user group meeting a couple of months ago and some Progress sales guy was talking about the benefits of being able to create a .NET front end for your app and use some kind of proxy tools to talk to the AppServer so that you can write your front end in VB.net or C# and then write all of your business logic in Progress. Have they been sniffing glue over in Bedford - who in their right mind would architect a solution like this. It's hard enough working with just one technology nevermind mixing a bunch of them together and thinking this is the way to go. Ok - I'm going to write a .NET front end for my app, write my business logic in Progress and put it in the Appserver, and oh ya - I'll write my stored Procedures in Java and store them with the DB. So all my manager needs to do is find .NET/Progress/Java guys and we're golden. A few other people at the meeting thought that this was the beginning of the end too.
Not sure what the status of BLOBs and CLOBS are in version 10, but this has been something that has bothered me for the longest time. I had to write an app a few years back that used the RAW data type and had to do the chunk / un-chunk deal to store anything over 32k. Brutal.
Flame Suit on.
JR
.....
Hi all,
With interrest I read the post of jrotten, with some less interest I read the posts of BCM and theMatrixhas you. I think it's good for a Progress user to be critcial towards Progress. I think it's a lack of understanding the Progress RDBMS to say that if it has become absolete then the World would be a better place. (we all know what reasons Microsoft had in the past to make stuff standard) There are lots of really good Progress applications. Just like there are lots of really good Oracle applications.
Jrotten wrote about the analogy of Progress with an old stationwagon. You must remember that if you tune that stationwagon right, it can be a real mean lean fast machine especially if you throw in some type 2 storage area's.
Eclips is not just a pipe dream it really is going to happen. In fact I already saw it working.
SQL connections can be problematic sometimes with regard to the width. But then again if you acces a Progress apllication with Progress it's much faster then with SQL. I'd rather have only Progress clients on my DB then only SQL clients.
But there are other ways to give programms like Crytal Reports access to the Progress database. We for instance wrote a java wrapper from which crystal reports can run an appserver which in turn returns the results in XML.
Still I agree that it can be really anoying sometimes.
For most other DB languages it's comon to write the GUI in another language and since the Progress GUI isn't that "bling bling" and .NET seems to become some standard it's not that bad to have the integration with .NET. Now you can have people specialized in making .NET front-ends talk to the Progress database without having to know Progress.
Still Progress is planning on making newer better GUI for there apps, maybe in version 11 we can work with entirely new interfaces using SWT.
Same thing on WebServices. Very easy to make them and very easy to talk to WebServices. Again another way to talk to a Progress database without having to know anything about Progress.
With the coming of these 'new' features your problem of BLOB and CLOBS are also solved. Together with variables like longchar, datatime and dattime-TZ these are new variables in OE10. So now you can pass a XML document as a parameter throughout your apllication.
For the rest it's up to everyone to decide which database they like more. For me the Progress database is a very stable and very fast database which I prefere over all others.
Casper.
Hi all,
With interrest I read the post of jrotten, with some less interest I read the posts of BCM and theMatrixhas you. I think it's good for a Progress user to be critcial towards Progress. I think it's a lack of understanding the Progress RDBMS to say that if it has become absolete then the World would be a better place. (we all know what reasons Microsoft had in the past to make stuff standard) There are lots of really good Progress applications. Just like there are lots of really good Oracle applications.
Jrotten wrote about the analogy of Progress with an old stationwagon. You must remember that if you tune that stationwagon right, it can be a real mean lean fast machine
especially if you throw in some type 2 storage area's.Eclips is not just a pipe dream it really is going to happen. In fact I already saw it working.
SQL connections can be problematic sometimes with regard to the width. But then again if you acces a Progress apllication with Progress it's much faster then with SQL. I'd rather have only Progress clients on my DB then only SQL clients.
But there are other ways to give programms like Crytal Reports access to the Progress database. We for instance wrote a java wrapper from which crystal reports can run an appserver which in turn returns the results in XML.
Still I agree that it can be really anoying sometimes.
For most other DB languages it's comon to write the GUI in another language and since the Progress GUI isn't that "bling bling" and .NET seems to become some standard it's not that bad to have the integration with .NET. Now you can have people specialized in making .NET front-ends talk to the Progress database without having to know Progress.
Still Progress is planning on making newer better GUI for there apps, maybe in version 11 we can work with entirely new interfaces using SWT.
Same thing on WebServices. Very easy to make them and very easy to talk to WebServices. Again another way to talk to a Progress database without having to know anything about Progress.
With the coming of these 'new' features your problem of BLOB and CLOBS are also solved. Together with variables like longchar, datatime and dattime-TZ these are new variables in OE10. So now you can pass a XML document as a parameter throughout your apllication.
For the rest it's up to everyone to decide which database they like more. For me the Progress database is a very stable and very fast database which I prefere over all others.
Casper.
Progress is a very good and stable DB, but just because it has less functionality than others. I mean, why don’t we use mainframe applications instead of Windows GUI or linux or Relational DB?
Some Progress disadvantages:
Progress has a lot of limitations compared with others true Relational DBM, Progress is not a 100% Relational DB.
In Progress you have to pay database licenses and then App Server licenses, etc, etc, in Oracle you only pay the licenses you need to connect and you can use stored procedures with the same license.
If you are using “For Each” in all over your application instead of dynamic queries you cannot modify a table unless you recompile all your Application Server Programs or any procedure using that table.
You cannot create a script to modify something in your DB, also you cannot create a new table unless no one is locking something in your DB.
We have a very large application using App Server and Progress Web Client, we have to reset our servers every 15 days or we run out of free App Licenses.
The DB can only interact with other non progress DBs the same way as our mainframe applications do, using text files.
Some Progress disadvantages:
Progress has a lot of limitations compared with others true Relational DBM, Progress is not a 100% Relational DB.
In Progress you have to pay database licenses and then App Server licenses, etc, etc, in Oracle you only pay the licenses you need to connect and you can use stored procedures with the same license.
If you are using “For Each” in all over your application instead of dynamic queries you cannot modify a table unless you recompile all your Application Server Programs or any procedure using that table.
You cannot create a script to modify something in your DB, also you cannot create a new table unless no one is locking something in your DB.
We have a very large application using App Server and Progress Web Client, we have to reset our servers every 15 days or we run out of free App Licenses.
The DB can only interact with other non progress DBs the same way as our mainframe applications do, using text files.
jongpau
Member
OK, I am back... just for a quicky -- could not resist not to keep an eye on this thread
Hmm why do I just have to think this is running on a Microsoft platform???? :awink:
Code:
We have a very large application using App Server and Progress Web Client, we have to reset our servers every 15 days or we run out of free App Licenses.Hmm why do I just have to think this is running on a Microsoft platform???? :awink:
Hi cesaroll,
But you definitely have an issue with your application. It's not normal to have to reboot the server every 15 days in order to free appservers. If your appservers are hung then you probably have a coding (shared variables?) issue or some misconfiguration going on. I know very big applications who run on appservers (AIX) and haven't been restarted in a long long long time. Even the Windows(2003) environment doesn't need to be restarted this frequent (provided there are no updates ;-). You definately have a problem there.
Casper.
"With statistics you can proof everything, 10% of all people know that!"
But you definitely have an issue with your application. It's not normal to have to reboot the server every 15 days in order to free appservers. If your appservers are hung then you probably have a coding (shared variables?) issue or some misconfiguration going on. I know very big applications who run on appservers (AIX) and haven't been restarted in a long long long time. Even the Windows(2003) environment doesn't need to be restarted this frequent (provided there are no updates ;-). You definately have a problem there.
Casper.
"With statistics you can proof everything, 10% of all people know that!"
I’ve developed code with Progress for 10 years starting at version 6. I love the easy nature of the code in V6 it was a true 4GL. Now if you use any of the Dynamic Code capabilities of Progress you are really using a GL3. It’s possible to write Progress code that will compile, but will generate run time errors! In my book only <=3GL’s do that, a true 4GL should never be able to compile a program and then have that program generate a run time error.
I’ve moved onto DBA’ing both Progress and Oracle, just so happens I work at a company that uses both. It’s Progress 4GL that really sells it as a product. If you understand the ideas of transaction you can learn Progress in a week, SmartObjects will take a little longer though. If you have “large files enabled” on your DB there isn’t much else you have to do except maybe take the DB offline for about 24 when you want to rebuild the indexes or make schema changes or do any type of administration work! This is a real problem with Progress; its wants to call itself an “Enterprise” level DB, but it requires ungodly amounts of downtime to administer. Also if you want to have triggers on the DB you must make sure all clients can run those triggers! Meaning it’s not the DB that takes care of triggers but the client, which can be a pain as you have to distribute your trigger code to every client and make sure if you update the schema and the code that all clients get a new copy otherwise you have CRC errors. If you don’t develop much code that most of this isn’t a problem, but any system that is under constant development will find this a complete pain.
Now Oracle is a different kettle of fish, 10g is a very nice product with RAC & Grid computing. With options like Partitioned tables, which could be explained as having multiple separate databases all working in parallel on queries, it’s staggering how fast it can be to retrieve large quantities of information. Oracle isn’t perfect though but as a DB technology it really puts Progress in its place as an entry level DB product. To me Progress is the MS-Access of the Enterprise database market. It will do the job most of the time but once you start demanding of it, it will show it weaknesses. Don’t even begin to think you can run a true 24/7 operation on Progress as you can’t. Once you DB goes over 10GB time to look at a new DB technology, as any type of administration work will take quite a while.
I’ve moved onto DBA’ing both Progress and Oracle, just so happens I work at a company that uses both. It’s Progress 4GL that really sells it as a product. If you understand the ideas of transaction you can learn Progress in a week, SmartObjects will take a little longer though. If you have “large files enabled” on your DB there isn’t much else you have to do except maybe take the DB offline for about 24 when you want to rebuild the indexes or make schema changes or do any type of administration work! This is a real problem with Progress; its wants to call itself an “Enterprise” level DB, but it requires ungodly amounts of downtime to administer. Also if you want to have triggers on the DB you must make sure all clients can run those triggers! Meaning it’s not the DB that takes care of triggers but the client, which can be a pain as you have to distribute your trigger code to every client and make sure if you update the schema and the code that all clients get a new copy otherwise you have CRC errors. If you don’t develop much code that most of this isn’t a problem, but any system that is under constant development will find this a complete pain.
Now Oracle is a different kettle of fish, 10g is a very nice product with RAC & Grid computing. With options like Partitioned tables, which could be explained as having multiple separate databases all working in parallel on queries, it’s staggering how fast it can be to retrieve large quantities of information. Oracle isn’t perfect though but as a DB technology it really puts Progress in its place as an entry level DB product. To me Progress is the MS-Access of the Enterprise database market. It will do the job most of the time but once you start demanding of it, it will show it weaknesses. Don’t even begin to think you can run a true 24/7 operation on Progress as you can’t. Once you DB goes over 10GB time to look at a new DB technology, as any type of administration work will take quite a while.
Hi,
Do you really think it's impossible to get run-time errors with 4GL languages? Every programm which compiles can get run-time errors. Parameter mismatch, memory overflow and so on.
There are various ways to minimize downtime to an absolute minimum. Progress can be a near 24/7 system. Especially if you use storage area's, type II storage area's and a good database design.
There are utility's like index compress you can use on-line.
You can add new tables on-line.
With appserver there is no more need for triggers to be on the client side.
Learn all of Progress 4GL in a week is a bit optimistic, I suppose.
Oracle isn't a bad product
Casper.
Do you really think it's impossible to get run-time errors with 4GL languages? Every programm which compiles can get run-time errors. Parameter mismatch, memory overflow and so on.
There are various ways to minimize downtime to an absolute minimum. Progress can be a near 24/7 system. Especially if you use storage area's, type II storage area's and a good database design.
There are utility's like index compress you can use on-line.
You can add new tables on-line.
With appserver there is no more need for triggers to be on the client side.
Learn all of Progress 4GL in a week is a bit optimistic, I suppose.
Oracle isn't a bad product
Casper.
We are using Storage Areas for different tables, plus some indexes have there own. We’ve done all the normal file system block for Progress block size stuff, even change the record block count on Storage Areas to optimise our internal block usage. This is all this sitting on a nice beefy RAID1/0 SAN.
There are utility's like index compress you can use on-line.
Yes, but you can’t fix the number of Levels used by an index with the Compress Index, you must use a rebuild. The other issue is that if you want to add an index on a table with 4GB+ of data, you need either to add the index off line and wait till it finishes. Or use a hack where you add the index inactive then build it with Fix-Index followed by a build index to make live. This way you minimise the system downtime, but you still need two session of downtime, the add index and the final build index. This leave a cold buffer (–B) which isn’t optimal for a good couple of hours after. The other thing, all code needs to be recompiled which accesses that table, otherwise CRC errors! If you run a very dynamic system with lots of changes caused by business requirements it can be a nightmare getting Progress to be responsive to the businesses needs. Oracle can do this all online without recompiles of code. If you add a new index it’s done in the background then made live when it finished, from then on all SQL statements that can benefit from it will so automatically. Even a simple SQL ‘Grant DBA’ gives me unable to lock table errors when trying to add a new user that requires DBA! talk about a pain.
I work in a very close to 24/7 environment, meaning we only bring down the DB for schema changes. I must say Progress is rock solid I’ve never had it crash on me! It’s just a pain in the “maintenance window” to make changes. It’s my understanding that Open Edge 10 has made advances to what can be done online, but I don’t think we’re interested because of the upgrade costs. I view Progress DBs as a legacy system as they are anything like being Open or on the leading Edge!
I think Progress would make great open source project as this is the only thing missing from the OSS movement, a good 4GL. But of course this makes absolutely no business senses, yet, maybe on a couple of years. Free but you pay for support.
There are utility's like index compress you can use on-line.
Yes, but you can’t fix the number of Levels used by an index with the Compress Index, you must use a rebuild. The other issue is that if you want to add an index on a table with 4GB+ of data, you need either to add the index off line and wait till it finishes. Or use a hack where you add the index inactive then build it with Fix-Index followed by a build index to make live. This way you minimise the system downtime, but you still need two session of downtime, the add index and the final build index. This leave a cold buffer (–B) which isn’t optimal for a good couple of hours after. The other thing, all code needs to be recompiled which accesses that table, otherwise CRC errors! If you run a very dynamic system with lots of changes caused by business requirements it can be a nightmare getting Progress to be responsive to the businesses needs. Oracle can do this all online without recompiles of code. If you add a new index it’s done in the background then made live when it finished, from then on all SQL statements that can benefit from it will so automatically. Even a simple SQL ‘Grant DBA’ gives me unable to lock table errors when trying to add a new user that requires DBA! talk about a pain.
I work in a very close to 24/7 environment, meaning we only bring down the DB for schema changes. I must say Progress is rock solid I’ve never had it crash on me! It’s just a pain in the “maintenance window” to make changes. It’s my understanding that Open Edge 10 has made advances to what can be done online, but I don’t think we’re interested because of the upgrade costs. I view Progress DBs as a legacy system as they are anything like being Open or on the leading Edge!
I think Progress would make great open source project as this is the only thing missing from the OSS movement, a good 4GL. But of course this makes absolutely no business senses, yet, maybe on a couple of years. Free but you pay for support.
Progress_Guy
Member
Hi there folks,
My first posting to ProgressTalk and what an absolute cracker for me to start off with.
I have to admit I had to read this at least three times and then still thought it was some sort of April Fools Joke.
Well here goes - although I confess this thread has been well and truly squeezed of all juice possible.
- storing 60 chars. with a defined size of 50 (Do you know Progress ?? It's display and not storage size). And thank god to those guys at Progress for this. How many times have we all defined a length of 50 and then needed 60 ?? Hmm just once or twice methinks !!
- why are you importing perfectly decent data from Progress into SQL server ?? Possibly you need to read a Progress manual on how to connect and
query Progress data !!
- hierarchial database systems - good god I thought these went out before I was born !!
- severe difficulty making successful connections with non-Progress systems : You DEFINATELY need to go on some basic Progress training courses.
- a free copy of Oracle for UNIX - FREE !! Absolutely. Superb offer. Plus 2 database administrators to run it and pick it up when it falls (in UK £30-£40 +benefits+company cars).
One point about manual locking/unlocking - One assumes that you only have one employee working for your business who is (obviously) the only one entering data and therefore flexibility of locking is not an issue. I hope and pray you never work for a bank where my savings are held !!
Find me an application development environment that includes 4GL, database (and GUI App dev. tool) all provided by the same vendor. Oh of course. VB. You get a 3GL (close to 4GL I suppose), ADO (whit whoo) and GUI App. Dev. tool.
P.S. Slightly curious. Excuse my snobbery, but, have you ever turned a computer on ?? GameBoy doesn't count !!
Phew. Feel a little better now.
Seriously. Progress has its weaknesses, but, in my experience not as many as its competitors and in terms of ease of use, flexibility,efficiency, cost of OWNERSHIP (an entirely different kettle of fish than initial cost - as any Financial Executive will inform you) it beats the pants off the others.
Take care folks and have a nice holiday weekend.
From an ex 3GL programmer with over 10 years Progress (CHUI,GUI,WEBSPEED, Database Admin. experience) as well as C/C++, SQL and Informix (please don't shoot me) and even worse (Oracle).
My first posting to ProgressTalk and what an absolute cracker for me to start off with.
I have to admit I had to read this at least three times and then still thought it was some sort of April Fools Joke.
Well here goes - although I confess this thread has been well and truly squeezed of all juice possible.
- storing 60 chars. with a defined size of 50 (Do you know Progress ?? It's display and not storage size). And thank god to those guys at Progress for this. How many times have we all defined a length of 50 and then needed 60 ?? Hmm just once or twice methinks !!
- why are you importing perfectly decent data from Progress into SQL server ?? Possibly you need to read a Progress manual on how to connect and
query Progress data !!
- hierarchial database systems - good god I thought these went out before I was born !!
- severe difficulty making successful connections with non-Progress systems : You DEFINATELY need to go on some basic Progress training courses.
- a free copy of Oracle for UNIX - FREE !! Absolutely. Superb offer. Plus 2 database administrators to run it and pick it up when it falls (in UK £30-£40 +benefits+company cars).
One point about manual locking/unlocking - One assumes that you only have one employee working for your business who is (obviously) the only one entering data and therefore flexibility of locking is not an issue. I hope and pray you never work for a bank where my savings are held !!
Find me an application development environment that includes 4GL, database (and GUI App dev. tool) all provided by the same vendor. Oh of course. VB. You get a 3GL (close to 4GL I suppose), ADO (whit whoo) and GUI App. Dev. tool.
P.S. Slightly curious. Excuse my snobbery, but, have you ever turned a computer on ?? GameBoy doesn't count !!
Phew. Feel a little better now.
Seriously. Progress has its weaknesses, but, in my experience not as many as its competitors and in terms of ease of use, flexibility,efficiency, cost of OWNERSHIP (an entirely different kettle of fish than initial cost - as any Financial Executive will inform you) it beats the pants off the others.
Take care folks and have a nice holiday weekend.
From an ex 3GL programmer with over 10 years Progress (CHUI,GUI,WEBSPEED, Database Admin. experience) as well as C/C++, SQL and Informix (please don't shoot me) and even worse (Oracle).
In reply to the Progress Guy - you come across as very confident and in all humility I'd like to comment on your post.
- storing 60 chars. with a defined size of 50 (Do you know Progress ?? It's display and not storage size). And thank god to those guys at Progress for this. How many times have we all defined a length of 50 and then needed 60 ?? Hmm just once or twice methinks !!
In my opinion, I'd prefer a hard coded limit that would provide consistency among all rogue developers who slam stuff into records without going through the proper process. This causes an endless pain in the butt when you design a screen/report with a particular display format only to find out that someone has stuffed more into the field than was in the design spec.
- why are you importing perfectly decent data from Progress into SQL server ?? Possibly you need to read a Progress manual on how to connect and
query Progress data !!
SQL Server ODBC/JDBC Drivers don't require any additional software installed on a client machine to work (Progress' does). Dumping to a database that clients can easily connect to is more common than you might think.
- hierarchial database systems - good god I thought these went out before I was born !!
Not sure when you were born, but they're still around kiddo - in fact people are using modified versions of them because of the speed they provide. Do some research and you'll see why a hierarchical database may be more effective than a relational one in particular situations. Think about LDAP and you might have an epiphany.
- severe difficulty making successful connections with non-Progress systems : You DEFINATELY need to go on some basic Progress training courses.
What basic course are you referring to? I'd love to go to it. When I get requests to check three or four different flavors of databases (Sybase/Oracle/DB2/SQL Server/etc) before I can commit a record in my Progress app - I'll usually use Java and grab the JDBC drivers I need to connect to everything and write the access code in about an hour or so. If you just stay in the Progress world, everything seems easy, but once you start mixing it up with DataServers/AppServers/Web Services/Sonic etc, things get a little hairy for me.
- a free copy of Oracle for UNIX - FREE !! Absolutely. Superb offer. Plus 2 database administrators to run it and pick it up when it falls (in UK £30-£40 +benefits+company cars).
I've read this type of comment several times and have never seen it in practice. Oracle isn't the biggest kid on the block just because of great marketing. They do have a pretty decent product too.
Find me an application development environment that includes 4GL, database (and GUI App dev. tool) all provided by the same vendor. Oh of course. VB. You get a 3GL (close to 4GL I suppose), ADO (whit whoo) and GUI App. Dev. tool.
To use an analogy here - would you prefer to go to the best dentist for a checkup, followed by the best doctor for surgery, followed by the best barber for a haircut, followed by the best mechanic to get your car fixed- or just go down the street to the one shop dentist/doctor/barber/mechanic/jack-of-all-trades guy. Give me best of breed rather than the same brand name everytime.
P.S. Slightly curious. Excuse my snobbery, but, have you ever turned a computer on ?? GameBoy doesn't count !!
Tsk tsk - that's not very nice is it - that would be like me saying "I was like you once ...... young and stupid". Of course, I'd never say that though.
Phew. Feel a little better now.
Glad to hear it
Seriously. Progress has its weaknesses, but, in my experience not as many as its competitors and in terms of ease of use, flexibility,efficiency, cost of OWNERSHIP (an entirely different kettle of fish than initial cost - as any Financial Executive will inform you) it beats the pants off the others.
"Any Financial Executive understanding cost of ownership" - are you sure? I guess no companies are going bankrupt in your part of the world because all of the financial execs understand what cost of OWNERSHIP means. Progress has its place, but I'd prefer to have a few tools in my toolbox to use depending on the situation.
Just my ignorant 2 cents - now where's my GameBoy
- storing 60 chars. with a defined size of 50 (Do you know Progress ?? It's display and not storage size). And thank god to those guys at Progress for this. How many times have we all defined a length of 50 and then needed 60 ?? Hmm just once or twice methinks !!
In my opinion, I'd prefer a hard coded limit that would provide consistency among all rogue developers who slam stuff into records without going through the proper process. This causes an endless pain in the butt when you design a screen/report with a particular display format only to find out that someone has stuffed more into the field than was in the design spec.
- why are you importing perfectly decent data from Progress into SQL server ?? Possibly you need to read a Progress manual on how to connect and
query Progress data !!
SQL Server ODBC/JDBC Drivers don't require any additional software installed on a client machine to work (Progress' does). Dumping to a database that clients can easily connect to is more common than you might think.
- hierarchial database systems - good god I thought these went out before I was born !!
Not sure when you were born, but they're still around kiddo - in fact people are using modified versions of them because of the speed they provide. Do some research and you'll see why a hierarchical database may be more effective than a relational one in particular situations. Think about LDAP and you might have an epiphany.
- severe difficulty making successful connections with non-Progress systems : You DEFINATELY need to go on some basic Progress training courses.
What basic course are you referring to? I'd love to go to it. When I get requests to check three or four different flavors of databases (Sybase/Oracle/DB2/SQL Server/etc) before I can commit a record in my Progress app - I'll usually use Java and grab the JDBC drivers I need to connect to everything and write the access code in about an hour or so. If you just stay in the Progress world, everything seems easy, but once you start mixing it up with DataServers/AppServers/Web Services/Sonic etc, things get a little hairy for me.
- a free copy of Oracle for UNIX - FREE !! Absolutely. Superb offer. Plus 2 database administrators to run it and pick it up when it falls (in UK £30-£40 +benefits+company cars).
I've read this type of comment several times and have never seen it in practice. Oracle isn't the biggest kid on the block just because of great marketing. They do have a pretty decent product too.
Find me an application development environment that includes 4GL, database (and GUI App dev. tool) all provided by the same vendor. Oh of course. VB. You get a 3GL (close to 4GL I suppose), ADO (whit whoo) and GUI App. Dev. tool.
To use an analogy here - would you prefer to go to the best dentist for a checkup, followed by the best doctor for surgery, followed by the best barber for a haircut, followed by the best mechanic to get your car fixed- or just go down the street to the one shop dentist/doctor/barber/mechanic/jack-of-all-trades guy. Give me best of breed rather than the same brand name everytime.
P.S. Slightly curious. Excuse my snobbery, but, have you ever turned a computer on ?? GameBoy doesn't count !!
Tsk tsk - that's not very nice is it - that would be like me saying "I was like you once ...... young and stupid". Of course, I'd never say that though.
Phew. Feel a little better now.
Glad to hear it
Seriously. Progress has its weaknesses, but, in my experience not as many as its competitors and in terms of ease of use, flexibility,efficiency, cost of OWNERSHIP (an entirely different kettle of fish than initial cost - as any Financial Executive will inform you) it beats the pants off the others.
"Any Financial Executive understanding cost of ownership" - are you sure? I guess no companies are going bankrupt in your part of the world because all of the financial execs understand what cost of OWNERSHIP means. Progress has its place, but I'd prefer to have a few tools in my toolbox to use depending on the situation.
Just my ignorant 2 cents - now where's my GameBoy
Progress_Guy
Member
ok. I admit, was, slightly ignorant in my reply, but, I was replying to a confident and cocky email so I gave as good as I got - oops
Your reply was respectful and I accept the slight slaps on the wrist - lol.
But I love having the last word sorry - so here goes,
- storing 60 chars. with a defined size of 50 (Do you know Progress ?? It's display and not storage size). And thank god to those guys at Progress for this. How many times have we all defined a length of 50 and then needed 60 ?? Hmm just once or twice methinks !!
In my opinion, I'd prefer a hard coded limit that would provide consistency among all rogue developers who slam stuff into records without going through the proper process. This causes an endless pain in the butt when you design a screen/report with a particular display format only to find out that someone has stuffed more into the field than was in the design spec.
Hmmm. I agree, but, applications always change and it's easier modifying a report than modifying the database schema to accomodate changing real world requirements.
- why are you importing perfectly decent data from Progress into SQL server ?? Possibly you need to read a Progress manual on how to connect and
query Progress data !!
SQL Server ODBC/JDBC Drivers don't require any additional software installed on a client machine to work (Progress' does). Dumping to a database that clients can easily connect to is more common than you might think.
Time spent installing of the additional Progress software is minimal. I know that dumping to an additional database is common - we do it ourselves. But, it causes endless problems. The pain of someone having to remember to manually do the dump - or an automated process failing. Dumping to databases like Access and then suffering when the data becomes corrupt - data duplication and risks of data changes not being transferred to the database. What if someone is doing an incremental dump and analysis sets change ?? And what about the additional storage requirements. Don't come back with storage being cheaper either (lol ) as there are added problems such as having to back the data up.
- hierarchial database systems - good god I thought these went out before I was born !!
Not sure when you were born, but they're still around kiddo - in fact people are using modified versions of them because of the speed they provide. Do some research and you'll see why a hierarchical database may be more effective than a relational one in particular situations. Think about LDAP and you might have an epiphany.
Modified versions yet. I'm very familiar with LDAP, but, the original author didn't say modified and the performance we get out of Progress is superb.
- severe difficulty making successful connections with non-Progress systems : You DEFINATELY need to go on some basic Progress training courses.
What basic course are you referring to? I'd love to go to it. When I get requests to check three or four different flavors of databases (Sybase/Oracle/DB2/SQL Server/etc) before I can commit a record in my Progress app - I'll usually use Java and grab the JDBC drivers I need to connect to everything and write the access code in about an hour or so. If you just stay in the Progress world, everything seems easy, but once you start mixing it up with DataServers/AppServers/Web Services/Sonic etc, things get a little hairy for me.
Your personal opionion and not mine so perhaps we need to agree to differ here
- a free copy of Oracle for UNIX - FREE !! Absolutely. Superb offer. Plus 2 database administrators to run it and pick it up when it falls (in UK £30-£40 +benefits+company cars).
I've read this type of comment several times and have never seen it in practice. Oracle isn't the biggest kid on the block just because of great marketing. They do have a pretty decent product too.
Fact remains that Oracle requires far more administration than Progress.
Find me an application development environment that includes 4GL, database (and GUI App dev. tool) all provided by the same vendor. Oh of course. VB. You get a 3GL (close to 4GL I suppose), ADO (whit whoo) and GUI App. Dev. tool.
To use an analogy here - would you prefer to go to the best dentist for a checkup, followed by the best doctor for surgery, followed by the best barber for a haircut, followed by the best mechanic to get your car fixed- or just go down the street to the one shop dentist/doctor/barber/mechanic/jack-of-all-trades guy. Give me best of breed rather than the same brand name everytime.
Good answer. Difficult for me to argue, but, if one has a database engine that does the job. A 4GL that allows faster development (and maintenance) than the competition that has also ported seamlessly from CHUI to GUI to Web then it's difficult to argue using 3 or 4 different software suppliers as opposed to one !!
P.S. Slightly curious. Excuse my snobbery, but, have you ever turned a computer on ?? GameBoy doesn't count !!
Tsk tsk - that's not very nice is it - that would be like me saying "I was like you once ...... young and stupid". Of course, I'd never say that though.
Ok. I was mad here. I apologies for that one. Have a look at my other posts. I'm not an anti-newbie and I don't forget where I came from. I am spending some time passing on what I have learnt over the years to others. The tone of the original authors email was confrontational and aggressive so I responded like for like. grrrrr,
Phew. Feel a little better now.
Glad to hear it
Seriously. Progress has its weaknesses, but, in my experience not as many as its competitors and in terms of ease of use, flexibility,efficiency, cost of OWNERSHIP (an entirely different kettle of fish than initial cost - as any Financial Executive will inform you) it beats the pants off the others.
"Any Financial Executive understanding cost of ownership" - are you sure? I guess no companies are going bankrupt in your part of the world because all of the financial execs understand what cost of OWNERSHIP means. Progress has its place, but I'd prefer to have a few tools in my toolbox to use depending on the situation.
Hmmm. I'll keep quiet about the Financial Executives, but, I agree with numerous tools in ones tool box and certainly I do adopt that philosiphy (partly for my own selfish reasons of being more markatable to future employers).
Just my ignorant 2 cents - now where's my GameBoy
Bring back PacMan - lol.
Take care.
Your reply was respectful and I accept the slight slaps on the wrist - lol.
But I love having the last word sorry - so here goes
,- storing 60 chars. with a defined size of 50 (Do you know Progress ?? It's display and not storage size). And thank god to those guys at Progress for this. How many times have we all defined a length of 50 and then needed 60 ?? Hmm just once or twice methinks !!
In my opinion, I'd prefer a hard coded limit that would provide consistency among all rogue developers who slam stuff into records without going through the proper process. This causes an endless pain in the butt when you design a screen/report with a particular display format only to find out that someone has stuffed more into the field than was in the design spec.
Hmmm. I agree, but, applications always change and it's easier modifying a report than modifying the database schema to accomodate changing real world requirements.
- why are you importing perfectly decent data from Progress into SQL server ?? Possibly you need to read a Progress manual on how to connect and
query Progress data !!
SQL Server ODBC/JDBC Drivers don't require any additional software installed on a client machine to work (Progress' does). Dumping to a database that clients can easily connect to is more common than you might think.
Time spent installing of the additional Progress software is minimal. I know that dumping to an additional database is common - we do it ourselves. But, it causes endless problems. The pain of someone having to remember to manually do the dump - or an automated process failing. Dumping to databases like Access and then suffering when the data becomes corrupt - data duplication and risks of data changes not being transferred to the database. What if someone is doing an incremental dump and analysis sets change ?? And what about the additional storage requirements. Don't come back with storage being cheaper either (lol ) as there are added problems such as having to back the data up.
- hierarchial database systems - good god I thought these went out before I was born !!
Not sure when you were born, but they're still around kiddo - in fact people are using modified versions of them because of the speed they provide. Do some research and you'll see why a hierarchical database may be more effective than a relational one in particular situations. Think about LDAP and you might have an epiphany.
Modified versions yet. I'm very familiar with LDAP, but, the original author didn't say modified and the performance we get out of Progress is superb.
- severe difficulty making successful connections with non-Progress systems : You DEFINATELY need to go on some basic Progress training courses.
What basic course are you referring to? I'd love to go to it. When I get requests to check three or four different flavors of databases (Sybase/Oracle/DB2/SQL Server/etc) before I can commit a record in my Progress app - I'll usually use Java and grab the JDBC drivers I need to connect to everything and write the access code in about an hour or so. If you just stay in the Progress world, everything seems easy, but once you start mixing it up with DataServers/AppServers/Web Services/Sonic etc, things get a little hairy for me.
Your personal opionion and not mine so perhaps we need to agree to differ here
- a free copy of Oracle for UNIX - FREE !! Absolutely. Superb offer. Plus 2 database administrators to run it and pick it up when it falls (in UK £30-£40 +benefits+company cars).
I've read this type of comment several times and have never seen it in practice. Oracle isn't the biggest kid on the block just because of great marketing. They do have a pretty decent product too.
Fact remains that Oracle requires far more administration than Progress.
Find me an application development environment that includes 4GL, database (and GUI App dev. tool) all provided by the same vendor. Oh of course. VB. You get a 3GL (close to 4GL I suppose), ADO (whit whoo) and GUI App. Dev. tool.
To use an analogy here - would you prefer to go to the best dentist for a checkup, followed by the best doctor for surgery, followed by the best barber for a haircut, followed by the best mechanic to get your car fixed- or just go down the street to the one shop dentist/doctor/barber/mechanic/jack-of-all-trades guy. Give me best of breed rather than the same brand name everytime.
Good answer. Difficult for me to argue, but, if one has a database engine that does the job. A 4GL that allows faster development (and maintenance) than the competition that has also ported seamlessly from CHUI to GUI to Web then it's difficult to argue using 3 or 4 different software suppliers as opposed to one !!
P.S. Slightly curious. Excuse my snobbery, but, have you ever turned a computer on ?? GameBoy doesn't count !!
Tsk tsk - that's not very nice is it - that would be like me saying "I was like you once ...... young and stupid". Of course, I'd never say that though.
Ok. I was mad here. I apologies for that one. Have a look at my other posts. I'm not an anti-newbie and I don't forget where I came from. I am spending some time passing on what I have learnt over the years to others. The tone of the original authors email was confrontational and aggressive so I responded like for like. grrrrr
, Phew. Feel a little better now.
Glad to hear it
Seriously. Progress has its weaknesses, but, in my experience not as many as its competitors and in terms of ease of use, flexibility,efficiency, cost of OWNERSHIP (an entirely different kettle of fish than initial cost - as any Financial Executive will inform you) it beats the pants off the others.
"Any Financial Executive understanding cost of ownership" - are you sure? I guess no companies are going bankrupt in your part of the world because all of the financial execs understand what cost of OWNERSHIP means. Progress has its place, but I'd prefer to have a few tools in my toolbox to use depending on the situation.
Hmmm. I'll keep quiet about the Financial Executives, but, I agree with numerous tools in ones tool box and certainly I do adopt that philosiphy (partly for my own selfish reasons of being more markatable to future employers).
Just my ignorant 2 cents - now where's my GameBoy
Bring back PacMan - lol.
Take care.
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