Some ideas

[ezequiel]

Hello, I was thinking about the development market. Other database provider have free versions: SQL express, Oracle Lite, etc.

Right now, Workgroup 9.1 (we use it at work because 10 and 11 are obscenely expensive) is good stuff, but is it really better than PostgressSQL?

Why not make Workgroup 9.1 a free-to use, downloadable product? And a limited client with it, and a old appbuilder.

This could make the brand more known, using out-of-date products.

I guess Tom and the other Progress-insiders would be angry with the idea, but, is it really bad?

Progress is a really good but truly expensive product. Giving a free some could be good.

 

[RealHeavyDude]

I've come across such ideas since I am working with Progress products which dates back to the beginning of the '90s of the last century. I can't remember that any of the Progress representatives I have met, especially the sales and marketing guys, ever agreed. Full stop.

Heavy Regards, RealHeavyDude.

 

[TomBascom]

Why would I be angry? (And I'm not much of an "insider".)

I agree that getting inexpensive developer licenses out there would be very good for the Progress ecosystem. But I wouldn't do it by releasing ancient, obsolete and unsupported stuff. Like RHD I have never heard a golf-club swinging PSC person sympathize.

If you have kept your maintenance up to date upgrading from 9 to 10 (or 11) is free. So "obscenely expensive" sounds more like "foolishly short-sighted management decision" to me. Are you still running Windows 95 on all of your desktops? Do you still use the same version of MS-Office that you had in 1999?

 

[durkadurka]

Right now, Workgroup 9.1 (we use it at work because 10 and 11 are obscenely expensive) is good stuff, but is it really better than PostgressSQL?

The OpenEdge DB (should be called ClosedSludge) is nowhere near as good as Postgres, the latter of which is actually both open and free. OE is unlikely to ever catch up to Postgres, which has been iterating quickly due to so many people jumping ship from MySQL due to the Oracle buyout. Check out some Postgres features here and here and try and find any comparable OpenEdge features. What is OpenEdge innovating, anyway? Over-hyped useless features like multi-tenancy and... *crickets*


If you want small and light, start with SQLite, then when you need to deploy/scale or add DB-specific features, switch to Postgres.

 

[ezequiel]

Well, thanks for answering. By the way, I didn't mean to offense with the "insider" word.

So, no surprises: The idea is not really bad but sales people will never agree. I'm not sure that is more clever than stop paying the maintenance.

Thanks again!

 

[tamhas]

Recognize that products which have free development environments tend to be mass market or products which are already widely accepted, while PSC is a niche product. Giving away a development environment creates a support burden ... worth it to someone who expects the give away to result in a lot of sales, but a burden to those where the conversions are likely to be limited. Frankly, most of the people who want a free developer environment are people already in the Progress family, so the incremental sales are questionable.

 

[GregTomkins]

Let's face it: the people who designed the 4GL and the people who market it are at opposite ends of the spectrum. That's why this board regularly has advertisements and questions from products and people moving away from Progress. It's really a shame, because Progress has so much awesomeness, much in the way that Beta (as in, the technically superior VCR format) did in its day.

 

[tamhas]

I don't think this is a fair statement in several respects and any validity it might have had at some time in the past is certainly not true of current management. In fact, given the sale of new licenses one can see in the financials, it is obvious that the net movement is toward new adoption, not net loss. Sure, some leave. Some leave any platform. They always make the most noise. They are not leaving because of the cost of the development platform.

 

[ezequiel]

...just for be clear: We are not leaving Progress!

Start a new application from zero would be more expensive than buy the new product.

 

[tamhas]

And does Postgres have transparent data encryption and multi-tenancy? For starters ...

 

[durkadurka]

And does Postgres have transparent data encryption

yes, either built-in or with the pgcrypto module for advanced features

and multi-tenancy?

Yes, Postgres has had schemas for many years, which provide multitenancy in a single database

 

[CarlosO]

I work with Ezequiel and I understand his point of view: we're not leaving Progress, we like Progress since we bought it 10 years ago, long live Progress. He is trying to express his wishes to expand the use of Progress, but as Tamhas said 'is a niche product'. We live in Perú and very few companies use Progress here, mostly version 8 and 9. We have WorkGroup 9.1C and we are very loyal to the product. It's only that I would like too (as Ezequiel) that Progress expand its userbase. When Microsoft or HP or another company call me for a survey and ask me what RDBMS we use and i answer: 'Progress', it's always the same, they said 'Postgre', no, 'Progress', please can you spell it, P-R-O-G-R-E-S-S. The problem is very few people know about our excellent world.

 

[tamhas]

Maybe you should talk to the Argentinians ... there are some strong shops down there.

 

[tamhas]

I don't know Postgres well enough to comment, but I'll bet they aren't equivalent. TDE in OE, for example, works entirely differently that encryption for Oracle and some other databases and is consequently massively more performant.

 

[durkadurka]

I don't know Postgres well enough to comment, but I'll bet they aren't equivalent. TDE in OE, for example, works entirely differently that encryption for Oracle and some other databases and is consequently massively more performant.

u have benchmarks i can run to back this up? or is just progress sales flyer / corporate buzzword TLA game?

 

[tamhas]

Neither. If you explore how PSC does TDE and then look at how other people do TDE, it is apparent that there is going to be a real difference in the penalty. I believe the figure for OE is less than 3%.

 

[durkadurka]

Neither. If you explore how PSC does TDE and then look at how other people do TDE, it is apparent that there is going to be a real difference in the penalty. I believe the figure for OE is less than 3%.

and how does progress do TDE? u looking at their source code here or just some design docs that progress publish? i'm guessing it's not the source code because progress is a closed source company from mouth to sphincter. if it's the second case then u are just taking them at their word - if progress said their system came with some advanced quantum computer stuff would u take their word for it too? and also what is your knowledge of how others do TDE? are u really omnipotent being?

the fact is even if u had progress's source code of their implementation u still wouldn't really know if it is faster than a competitor or not because code is not a mathematical proof - it is an abstraction that sits atop many other abstractions. u can do formal analysis, big-o notation and all that to make a good guess but the layers of abstraction below your source code may have bugs or issues u can't deterministically predict! it really has to be executed to find out.

also, TDE is not proper name, just corporate buzzword invented by Oracle to describe their encryption method. why must corporations wrap every feature in buzzword? just describe what the thing is doing instead of trying to wrap it in layer of indirection, please. (this not addressed to u just a minor venting of personal annoyance)

for the record, i have no idea if postgres or oracle would outperform PROGRESS for on-the-fly table encryption - i would write benchmarks first before saying such things. i suggest u should also write some benchmarks before u form such strong opinions, otherwise u sound like entrenched religious zealot. u have phd, right? use scientific method.

 

[tamhas]

Progress engineers, the people who wrote the code, have given many presentations at conferences about how it works. And, mentioning in passing what other people do and why they didn't go that route.

Go use Postgres ... it will probably improve the atmosphere.

 

[durkadurka]

<snip><snip>

 

[ezequiel]

I'm not sure if you are kidding....

Maybe you should talk to the Argentinians ... there are some strong shops down there.