progress rdbms career question

TomBascom

Curmudgeon
What is Getting Real?

...
Getting Real is a smaller, faster, better way to build software.
Getting Real is about skipping all the stuff that
represents real (charts, graphs, boxes, arrows, schematics,
wireframes, etc.) and actually building the real thing.
Getting real is less. Less mass, less software, less features,
less paperwork, less of everything that’s not essential (and
most of what you think is essential actually isn’t).
Getting Real is staying small and being agile...

and perhaps more to my point:

Build Less

Underdo your competition


Conventional wisdom says that to beat your competitors you
need to one-up them. If they have four features, you need five
(or 15, or 25). If they’re spending x, you need to spend xx. If
they have 20, you need 30.

This sort of one-upping Cold War mentality is a dead-end. It’s
an expensive, defensive, and paranoid way of building products.
Defensive, paranoid companies can’t think ahead, they can only
think behind. They don’t lead, they follow.

If you want to build a company that follows, you might as well put down
this book now.

So what to do then? The answer is less. Do less than your competitors
to beat them. Solve the simple problems and leave the
hairy, difficult, nasty problems to everyone else. Instead of oneupping,
try one-downing. Instead of outdoing, try underdoing.
We’ll cover the concept of less throughout this book, but for
starters, less means:
  • Less features
  • Less options/preferences
  • Less people and corporate structure
  • Less meetings and abstractions
  • Less promises
IOW Oracle having a gazillion features that Progress doesn't does not automatically make it the better tool for a given job.

Sure, there are times when you really do need some of those Oracle features. If you really need them that badly go ahead and use Oracle. I won't feel bad, I promise.

Plenty of us find the Progress feature set to be appropriate for what we're doing. If you're offended by that then I'm sorry but I really can't help you with that.
 
Oracle Vs Progress OpenEdge

Mines bigger than URs / I can Pee further. Who cares which offers the better db.
Progress OpenEdge offers an embeded solution. Folk focus too much on the db abilities, as apposed to the overall embedded solution provided. Gus and the Progress OpenEdge product is by far the solution.
The objective is to provide an embeded database solution.
 
TomBascom said:
Oracle having a gazillion features that Progress doesn't does not automatically make it the better tool for a given job.
I recently came across this image:

http://tinyurl.com/7785a

Typically, it was the first result returned by Google when I tried searching for it again to illustrate the point Tom just made.
 

Ach

Member
Ach said:
Jane:

If you have another choice, don't even think of entering the Progress world. People love to get out of it and those who can't would love to tell you how good this Progress thing is.

Been there done that for 8 years. Yup, I had been in Progress as a Senior Programmer and DBA and I am glad I am out of it. Coming from Oracle going to Progress is exactly the reverse of what you should do.

No you understand why I said what I said ? ;)

RHI..trust me. It's not even worth to participate in these kind of posts. These poor guys need some kind of defense mechanism to prove that they are not losers after all. That's what it is all about.

I am outta here into the real world and would let these guys learn everything about nothing so that they can keep enjoying their saturated little world.
 
those who can't would love to tell you how good this Progress thing is
You clearly haven't been reading the same thread as me.

The general response to Jane's original question from Progress programmers has been to advise her that sticking with Oracle is probably the better option for her, and on the whole Oracle vs. Progress thing in this and other threads, the general attitude has been 'each to their own', with a ready admittance that Oracle is generally a more comprehensive system, but the relative focus and simplicity of Progress has its own strengths.

Generally, the only regular 'my way or the highway' rants have tended to come from the Oracle posters in the forum.
 

Casper

ProgressTalk.com Moderator
Staff member
Ok,
I know I shouldn't be doing this but:

Been there done that for 8 years. Yup, I had been in Progress as a Senior Programmer and DBA and I am glad I am out of it. Coming from Oracle going to Progress is exactly the reverse of what you should do.
:You did a job you didn't like and still you did for 8 years. Men thats' little choice in life.
If you read all the posts then I didn't say Progress is the best there is, but I said Progress provides me at this time in my bussiness the best solution.
If you're realistic then you must know that debates like this probably never end because everyone got there own valid points. And speaking in terms like:
I am outta here into the real world and would let these guys learn everything about nothing so that they can keep enjoying their saturated little world.
sounds very wise, but in fact it means that your perception of real wordl is somewhat small (say: begins and ends with your vision). And above that from that tunnel vision you think you could judge on someones else his lifes aswell.

Both of those characteristics undo's every great feature whatever tool may give you.

Casper.
 

Ach

Member
I never said I never liked working on Progress. I said which one is 'better' to be in. The reason I was in Progress for 8 years is because I was waiting for my residency status in US which was provided by the company I was working for. So it's not true that I was in Progress because I had no other choice but for a specific purpose. The fact that I got out of it explains that I am a person who is capable of getting his way in life when required (unlike you ofcourse).

A thinking like 'Why somebody did something for some time and later moved on' is like saying 'I am a conceited person who doesn't understand **** about the IT industry'. In case you did not realise, the IT industry is totally different than Medical/Engineering/MBA fields where you learn something once and practise that for the rest of your life. In IT, things become obsolete in a decade and if people do not move on then they are plain dumb. So you are free to ask people why they were doing what they were doing for some time before they moved and I am sure you will get more interesting answers. It's like asking why somebody was working in DBase and moved to Progress.

The 'Real World' is not the world that begins and ends as far as my imagination goes but the world that is considered by masses. Go check the statistics of how many people are in Oracle vs Progress and you would know which world is 'Real'. For you to comment is like a DBase programmer commenting that the DBase world is real and if somebody doesn't agree with that then he is doing so because of what is real in his own imagination.

If it is anybody who is fixed in his ideas and not open to facts, it is YOU which you just proved by interpreting things by jumping to conclusions because that's as far as your imagination goes.


and if you may realise, the answers were intended for the original poster and sure enough, everybody has the right to their opinions but there was no need for a debate.
 
Ach said:
The 'Real World' is not the world that begins and ends as far as my imagination goes but the world that is considered by masses.
How the hell did we get onto Metaphysics?

Ach said:
Go check the statistics of how many people are in Oracle vs Progress and you would know which world is 'Real'.
Unless you can point us to a better resource, I'm afraid I'm going to have to resort to GoogleFight again...

http://tinyurl.com/lj4pn

Laters, dude.
 

Ach

Member
Ah..Mr Curzon, we all know the reason that Google fight came up with so many results is beacuse Progress is an English word, not because of anything else.

I am sure if you type 'Progress Programmer' or 'Progress DBA' in monster or dice, you will come up with a million hits, 5% of which will be actual Progress jobs.

Anyway, since it is a Google fight, I will let you win. ;)
 

rhi

Member
For one thing, I don't buy into the 'less is more' theory that Tom Bascom seems to be promoting. To me, that is the same thing as people who work harder at avoiding work, instead of just putting that effort into doing the job better. But, opinions are like *******s, everyones got one.

I choose Oracle because it helps me deliver a better system.

But given what I've just said, I will offer anyone in this forum to give me just ONE REASON, in any circumstance why PROGRESS database would be better that Oracle?

(Don't give me an opionion, please make it a tangible reason or fact).
 

rhi

Member
That's the obvious answer, but say I've built the oracle dataserver, and now have it running against an Oracle database, and i've compensated for the different datatypes and other programming considerations in my Progress application and it is fully functional running against an Oracle database.

Keeping in mind that I have done this because I want to take advantage of using Oracle database features - what can anyone offer me to convince me that I should move my application back to a Progress database?
 

TomBascom

Curmudgeon
That's an awful lot of work to go to for what, on the surface anyway, appears to be a very small gain. So it's either a very artful cba or the dataserver is a very, very powerful piece of software. Either way it would seem to me that sharing the analysis that justified doing all that work would be very interesting -- especially to PSC sales but also to development and the community in general. They could either use it as a model or a case study. Heck, it would probably make a pretty good presentation for Exchange too now that I think of it.

Of course I now know (from your other thread) that you didn't actually do most of the work -- QAD did (and at enormous expense over many years). But even so it might still make a good case study. Even though the Oracle option is readily available and widely touted my understanding is that, ultimately, not many people choose to go that route. I've always wondered (mildly) why that is and some detailed insight into the factors that drove such a decision would be beneficial to all. It might help increase sales of that solution or it might help to justify the inclusion of key features into the database (Attaching a dollar figure and a real customer to these things tends to get more attention than ranting and raving on web sites.)
 

rhi

Member
TomBascom said:
That's an awful lot of work to go to for what, on the surface anyway, appears to be a very small gain. So it's either a very artful cba or the dataserver is a very, very powerful piece of software. Either way it would seem to me that sharing the analysis that justified doing all that work would be very interesting -- especially to PSC sales but also to development and the community in general. They could either use it as a model or a case study. Heck, it would probably make a pretty good presentation for Exchange too now that I think of it.

Of course I now know (from your other thread) that you didn't actually do most of the work -- QAD did (and at enormous expense over many years). But even so it might still make a good case study. Even though the Oracle option is readily available and widely touted my understanding is that, ultimately, not many people choose to go that route. I've always wondered (mildly) why that is and some detailed insight into the factors that drove such a decision would be beneficial to all. It might help increase sales of that solution or it might help to justify the inclusion of key features into the database (Attaching a dollar figure and a real customer to these things tends to get more attention than ranting and raving on web sites.)

You're really loosing me here. What 'work', 'small gain', 'analysis' are you referring to? Something that I posted?
 
I choose Oracle because it helps me deliver a better system.
Ha H THUD
Laughing my dead of. NoBody has answered the actual defined statement. Folk have been too focused on the better / most effective db.
Honestly there is not a lot to choose between db performance. The actual statement is where the answer is where Oracle falls own and where Progress OpenEdge will ALWAYS prove to be the most effective solution.
the database should be chosen to which provides the better system. Progress OpenEdge is by FAR the most effective EMBEDDED solution. The OpenEdge ABL (Advanced Business Language), is able to encapuslate application development and data storage to provide the most effective embedded solution. What were the Progress 4GL is by far the most effective solution now available in OpenEdge. The OpenEdge ABL is a unmatched solution.
 
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