progress rdbms career question

[xzhang9]

HI All,
I am new to the forum and I am not sure I should post this.

I was an oracle dba and hpunix admin for 4 years, I also had some mssql and vb experimence. I am thinking to accept a job offer to be a "progress rdbms application admin", the system is IBM Unix OS.

Could you let me know the pros and cons of going to another slight different direction regarding to career development.

It is a very important decision and I value your opinons a lot, please also be aware I am based in USA.

Since I am new to progress rdbms field, what would be the salary range of a progress rdbms application administrator?


Sincerely,

Jane

 

[Lee Curzon]

Hi Jane,

This kind of question crops up quite regularly around these parts.

See this thread for some viewpoints, though be warned it gets a bit heated towards the end:

http://www.progresstalk.com/showthread.php?t=91281

My own view is that if you have Oracle experience, stick with it - the pay will be better, and you won't be starting on the bottom rung.

Of course, different skills are always good to have, but you have to be aware that Progress is a niche product, and that position isn't likely to change very soon.

I imagine you will find Progress quick to learn compared to Oracle as it's a much smaller system, and quite easy to install and deploy.

If you do take the Progress job, keep up to date with your Oracle skills, so you have something else to fall back on.

HTH

Lee

 

[Lee Curzon]

See also:

http://www.progresstalk.com/showthread.php?t=89619

 

[Lee Curzon]

Of course, different skills are always good to have, but you have to be aware that Progress is a niche product, and that position isn't likely to change very soon.

Don't get the impression taking a job in Progress is a completely negative move - there is a lot of data and code out there that is running on Progress, and there will be work available for number of years supporting them, enhancing them or converting them (which you will be in an ideal position to do with Progress, Oracle and MSSQL experience).

See here for some info:
http://www.progresstalk.com/showthread.php?t=93225

Progress jobs will be harder to find, and less lucrative than SQL Server/Oracle, but there will be less competition for them. If there are no other job offers for you on the horizon, taking it will be a good move. If you don't like it later, you can always move on, and in the mean time, you are adding another string to your bow.

If you are concerned about the learning curve, well like I said, there is less to take on board than with the bigger systems, and there are plenty of helpful resources, including here and www.peg.com.

 

[Lee Curzon]

ps.

HI All,
I am new to the forum and I am not sure I should post this.

Welcome to the forum, and you were absolutely right to post it.

 

[joey.jeremiah]

we'd love to have you

one could make an argument if you're developing a product or an isv. but it would be really hard to do the same as a career path. ironically, because it mostly doesn't require a dba.

even though i love programming in progress if i could i probably wouldn't do it all over again. i think of it as if i was drafted into progress

you'll pretty much endup with few years hole in your resume

speaking from my own experience getting to know the db was pretty simple. i believe most db's share alot of common ground. it's not like gus came up with undo-redo log, b-trees etc.

 

[Ach]

Jane:

If you have another choice, don't even think of entering the Progress world. People love to get out of it and those who can't would love to tell you how good this Progress thing is.

Been there done that for 8 years. Yup, I had been in Progress as a Senior Programmer and DBA and I am glad I am out of it. Coming from Oracle going to Progress is exactly the reverse of what you should do.

 

[rhi]

Jane, the advice being given here is good. If you have a choice, stay with Oracle. As a DBA, when you think of major RDBMS's (Oracle, DB2, SQL Server, Sybase, etc.), do NOT think PROGRESS. In terms of features and functionality, Progress database is closer to MS Access than it is to Oracle. While you might get a nice salary, you will pull your hair out administering the database. You can hardly do anything with the database online, so if the job is with a company that can not afford to take their database down during the day, be prepared for lots of long weekends of work.

(I have 12 years exp. as Progress DBA, 7 years w/ Oracle)

 

[mpowell_esq]

progress for tomorrow -TODAY with Progress OpenEdge

There is NOT a valid reason for not entering the Progress OpenEdge market. Everybody within the psc COMMUNITY loves working with the 4GL. The ONLY problem is the marketing / licensing strategy. Come on GUS. Progress is the best db you have NEVER heard of.
All the arguments that there is not enough work around is sticking your head in the sand time. The work IS there, you just need better strategies for accessing it.
Progress needs more users, more bums on seats.

 

[rhi]

The ONLY problem is the marketing / licensing strategy. Come on GUS. Progress is the best db you have NEVER heard of.

I often hear this excuse, that makreting is what has caused Progress to be so unknown. Let me ask you, do you have any experience with another DBMS, such as Oracle, SQL Server for DB2? I suspect not, because those of us who do have experience with Progress, Oracle and SQL Server KNOW FOR A FACT that it is not lack of marketing that has caused Progress to be unknown. The reason is it is lacking in features, and is designed that way so that it does not really need to be managed. The problem with using Progress as a database only occurs when companies like QAD try to use it as if it were an enterprise level database - which it is not!!!

 

[mpowell_esq]

Fell down

UR statement just fell down.
I DO have experience of other dbs, I completed my HNC.
An attribute of the HNC included ORACLE, which I just kept laughing at. I am used to Advanced Business Logic (OpenEdge ADL) then the so called market leader (Oracle) were introduced and with my Progress OpenEdge experiences I just LOL.

 

[rhi]

UR statement just fell down.
I DO have experience of other dbs, I completed my HNC.
An attribute of the HNC included ORACLE, which I just kept laughing at. I am used to Advanced Business Logic (OpenEdge ADL) then the so called market leader (Oracle) were introduced and with my Progress OpenEdge experiences I just LOL.

Being from the US, of course I had no idea what HNC is. After google-ing it, I see that it is some sort of college level training/degree in the UK. If that is the extent of your 'experience', then you have none. I've been WORKING in IT for over 20 years, and have REAL WORKING KNOWLEDGE of what databases can and should do.

I'll give one example just to educate you, further:

With Progress 9.1, you must take the database down to make schema changes and add database extents (the equivalent to expanding a table space in Oracle). In Progress 10, you can do this on-line, but if your database has after-imaging enabled (equivalent of archiving re-do logs in Oracle), you cannot add new storage areas online. You may only add new extents to existing areas.

This is just 1 example of 100's like it that make the Progress database a PAIN IN THE *** to manage, whereas you can do just about anything online in an Oracle database.

And my statement STANDS right where it is.

 

[mpowell_esq]

The HNC is NOT the extent of my knowledge. I am currently working towards my BSc. As for UR working knowledge I too have working knowledge I worked in manufacturing - The MFG/PRO product though I realised that were an EASY option - being employed. The real work is not limiting knowledge and gaining an overall business knowledge / skills that is transferable.

 

[Casper]

Allright,

here we go again with the 'who can pee further' contest :biggrin:
First, Rhi, you're absolutely right about the online functionality of Oracle, no argueing about that.

Our customers work with Progress databases, they don't have to be on-line 24/7 so to make schema changes is not such a big problem. Furthermore down-time can be minimised to an absolute minimum if you plan you're actions well.

And also: Even though you can do al stuff on-line with an Oracle database doesn't mean it's unnoticed by the users.

But now seriously how many comapany's really need to be on-line garanteed for the full 24/7?
Well sure the big company's. But how many big company's are there compared to the small bussinesses with like up to 300 employees?

Do you really think they can work with msAcces? Or do you believe Progress would be a better choice?
I've seen lousy Progress applications in my life, but just the same I saw very lousy Oracle applications. So what's the point.

What I'm trying to say is that everything you use in your job no matter what database are just tools. And for me Progress (or I should say OpenEdge) is a very good tool to make very good applications which can (yes really ) compete with Oracle applications. It's all about the bussiness you're in and the knowledge you have of that bussiness. For the rest you just need stable tools to make a good product.

I just get fed up a bit with all this 'Oracle is much better' stuff. Oracle has very nice and good functionality, I like the way the optimiser for SQL works, I like the online functionality.
The point is that sometimes it's like talking to people who tell how great msWord 2003 is with all this new functionality while in effect they make exactly the same document as they did with word perfect. Nice to have features, if you need them.

What I even hate more is people talking about these nice features while they're running in a Windows environment. Wow, there goes your up time....

Not all bussinesses are that critical that you really need to be online 24/7.

Bottom line is we have to make products which satisfy the needs of our customers and helps them to push their bussinesses forward.

Regards,

Casper.

 

[joey.jeremiah]

rhi, if i were you i'd drop it, can't you tell he's not right in the head.


how about running a few benchmarks of latest/current oracle, sql server and progress ?

of course we can't publish the results, it'll just be between ourselves and anyone who asks

i mean we've been talking about it for so long, how about putting it into numbers, just to get a proportion on things.

maybe even feature a comparisons summary, if we have the time.


just think it'll be interesting, well, how about it ?

 

[rhi]

Sure!
Here you go. Progress published it's own features comarison of Progress 9 DB VS. Oracle 9i DB. If you look at the columns in the features matrix for both databases (enterprise edition) you will see all check marks for Oracle, and A LOT OF BLANKS for Progress.
http://psdn.progress.com/library/competitive_info/reports/oracle9i_competitive_report.pdf

This paper is 4 years old, and I can tell you that Oracle 10G has about 100 new features over Oracle 9i, so I think you can imagine the ever growing gap in features between Oracle 10g & Progress 10.

I'll get back to you on the bench marks - running out of time today.

 

[joey.jeremiah]

trust me i know psdn inside and out plus sql server has some pretty
substantial handicaps

most of theses whitepapers aren't even relevant today. this year benchmark
bunker would be more useful

let's not go into this again, its really tiring.


between us it shouldn't be hard to setup a few servers on a single machine
and play around with it.

for the sake of knowledge. what could be so hard about striking a
meaningful conversation

 

[Lee Curzon]

for the sake of knowledge. what could be so hard about striking a
meaningful conversation

You'll have more luck with mikeyboy82.

 

[TomBascom]

Here you go. Progress published it's own features comparison of Progress 9 DB VS. Oracle 9i DB. If you look at the columns in the features matrix for both databases (enterprise edition) you will see all check marks for Oracle, and A LOT OF BLANKS for Progress.
http://psdn.progress.com/library/competitive_info/reports/oracle9i_competitive_report.pdf

This paper is 4 years old, and I can tell you that Oracle 10G has about 100 new features over Oracle 9i, so I think you can imagine the ever growing gap in features between Oracle 10g & Progress 10.

Perhaps you're missing the point:
https://gettingreal.37signals.com/

 

[rhi]

Perhaps you're missing the point:
https://gettingreal.37signals.com/

I'm not missing any point. The point is - pointing out advantages of Oracle db over Progess db (facts that have been posted), which happens in this forum all the time.

Though I do have to say, I don't understand your meaning. If you want to get into this conversation, try being a little less cryptic.